espn had http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/...-GreatestPointGuards

I'd go with: (never saw Cousy play)

1. Magic

2.Oscar

3.Zeke

4. Clyde Frazier

5. The Logo (yeah he was a combo guard but I'd let him run my team)

6. Stockton (he'd be higher if he had a ring and scored more)

7.Dennis Johnson (low assists but has several rings as a starting pg)

8. Payton

9. Kevin Johnson

10.Tiny

Obviously I'm not talking only about "pure" point guards. 7-10 were difficult.

I know the guy at #6, just look at the pic. We smoked blunts together in Off-Topic.

Brandon Jennings

1. Magic
2. Zeke
3. Big O
4. West
5. Cousy
6. Stockton
7. Payton
9. Kidd
8. Kevin Johnson

Magic
Zeke
Stockton
Nash
Kidd
Payton

Er^ No fraiser or Robertson on your list eh Tet?

Are those the best PG's you've seen play? (live)? In no particular order...

Big O
Fraser
Magic
Stockton
West
Payton
Kevin Johnson
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich (call him whatever you want, he was a point guard).
Earl Monroe


_________________________________

Most over-rated...



Sorry tet, I'm no homophobe, his sexual orientation has nothing to do with my hate. He's simply not that good.

Two time MVP winner...

Nash is a system player and can't play defense. I agree that he is very overrated.

He didn't deserve an MVP award.

quote:

Originally posted by tetris:
Two time MVP winner...

He earned one (maybe) the 2nd time was a load of BS. He's a career 14 and 8 who hasn't ever won anything. Had he never played in PHX's system (which is one of the fastest paced offenses the NBA has ever seen) his career numbers would look more like 14 and 4-5.

1. Magic
2. Big O
3. Zeke
4. West
5. Frazier
6. Stockton
7. Cousy
8. Payton
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Jason Kidd

In 2003/2004, before Nash arrived, the Suns had built their own big 3, Amar'e was injured for the most part of the season, 30 games remaining in the season, that Suns team led by Marion, Amar'e, and Johnson were healthy and played in every single game as a trio. The ended off the season with 10-20 record. So much talent, so much explosive scoring, defense, passing, but they finish 10-20? lol...

So Nash arrives 2005/2006, The experts predict the Suns to be an 8th seed overall, just a decent overall team, fun to watch, but nothing special. Nash leads them to an NBA best 62 win season. His swagger, his street ball passing, amazing ball handling, his ability to control the tempo on offense, create the fast-break, and effectively use the pick and role on the offensive end were huge. Without Nash the Suns had a 2-5 record, with Nash the Suns had a 60-15 record. Nash's was straight up clutch, he averaged 16 points, 11 assists, on 50 FG% 43 3PT% and 90 FT%---those are rare percentages. There was no "maybe" Black Thought, he won that MVP award hands down.

Next season, 2006 Nash is without his main offensive weapon in Amar'e. He still puts up averages of 18 points, 11 assists 4 rebounds on 50 FG%, 40 3PT% and 90FT%. Not only was Amar'e injured, Joe Johnson was traded before the season even began, Q. Rich opted out to leave for more money. Joe Johnson and Q. Rich were both big parts of the Suns offense that year. That's 3 starters missing. They were replaced with 6 role players, Eddie House, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, and Jermaine Jones. Nash still leads the team to a 54 win season. He earned that MVP hands down, it's wasn't even close. No one but Nash deserved MVP that season.

2007 Nash was just huge, he gets Amar'e back and puts up offensive output similar to that of his 2005 season. The Suns win 61 games but Stern gives the MVP to Dirk(lol) because they didn't want Nash to be the first player since Larry Bird to win three MVP's consecutively.

His impact was just to god dam big, you can't replace that with just any point guard.

Say it was the system. Fine. If it's that the case then would you say Magic and Big O, guys who put up big numbers on fast paced teams, were just system guys?

Nash was a superstar. One of the NBA players I respect the most. He was better than KJ, Payton, and Kidd.

Billups outplayed Nash statistically and head to head and best player on best team in 2007...

Nash didn't "breakout" until really his 10th season.

In yrs 2-5 KJ had 4 (rounding), 20 + 10 seasons and had basically shot 50% from the field 3 times during the same span. How is Nash better when at a minimum he's had 2 great yrs to KJ's 7 great yrs?

Magic changed the game, period. Is is possible that some other coach could have tried to regin him in, maybe.

Cumulatively, Oscar basically avg a triple double for his first 5 yrs. That's not just a system, it's pure skillz.

quote:

Originally posted by trade101:
Nash didn't "breakout" until really his 10th season.

In yrs 2-5 KJ had 4 (rounding), 20 + 10 seasons and had basically shot 50% from the field 3 times during the same span. How is Nash better when at a minimum he's had 2 great yrs to KJ's 7 great yrs?

Magic changed the game, period. Is is possible that some other coach could have tried to regin him in, maybe.

Cumulatively, Oscar basically avg a triple double for his first 5 yrs. That's not just a system, it's pure skillz.

KJ comment is quite poignant. The Oscar thing: He was playing against a half-strength NBA because of the ABA. (just playin DA here.)

""Nash didn't "breakout" until really his 10th season. "

Don't know why you would say this. He was an above average player in Dallas that could score from practically anywhere, Nash's offensive awareness on the Mavs was great. Dallas went to the western conference finals with Nash, and the 2nd round twice. He made two all star and NBA 3rd team appearances in that span.

Chauncey Billups,Tim Hardaway, and Mark Price are better than Kevin Johnson.

Not impressed by KJ. Dude was injury prone as hell and wasn't a star until his fourth season. KJ isn't in the same stratosphere as Nash or any other great point guard for that matter imo.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tetris,

quote:

Originally posted by trade101:
Nash didn't "breakout" until really his 10th season.

In yrs 2-5 KJ had 4 (rounding), 20 + 10 seasons and had basically shot 50% from the field 3 times during the same span. How is Nash better when at a minimum he's had 2 great yrs to KJ's 7 great yrs?

Magic changed the game, period. Is is possible that some other coach could have tried to regin him in, maybe.

Cumulatively, Oscar basically avg a triple double for his first 5 yrs. That's not just a system, it's pure skillz.

lol...are you ignoring how inflated stats were back then? Oscar was pure "skillz"? This was the same era where Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds. Bill Russell averaged 19 points and 23 rebounds. Walt Bellamy(who?) averaged 31 points and 19 rebounds.

Skill my ***. Oscar's stats are the product of playing 44 minutes per game at an 18% faster pace than today's game. I left the Big O(verrated) off my list intentionally due to the way the game has changed dramatically since the 60-70's.

In 1961-62 the average score was 118.8 points per game. That's about 18% higher than today's 99.3 per game. And Oscar's team were even faster than that averaging 123 ppg.

Teams averaged 71 rebounds per game in 1961-62, nowadays they average around 42 rebounds per game today...you think his triple doubles are legit?

If Oscar was just pure "skillz" he'd be the greatest player off all time.

that argument goes both ways. No 3 pointers, training techniques and supplements have changed considerably. Tetris, you're able to back up your opinions, I can't necessarily take that away from you. I do think they are asinine however.

You're downplaying a top 50 player of all time. It's pretty much you against the world here, I'll bet that whomever made that list took every factor into account. No offense, but these are people who know a hell of a lot more about the game of Basketball, in comparison to you or I.

You ignored my question in another topic, by the way. How long have you been a pistons fan for?

Sure Oscar's #'s are legit for his day. Why wasn't there a single other player doing what he did in terms of filling up the stat line during his era? Statistically, Oscar should be in the greatest of all time discussion.

Why in Wilt's last season 72-73 did he avg over 18 rbds and shoot almost 75% from the floor when clearly there were more big men in the game? Now, before you say that he only took 7 fga/gm, find me any player whose ever come close to doing it while playing 43 mpg over 82 gms. Kareem was around, so was Lanier, and neither of them did it.

Why in the "modern era" did Dennis Rodman lead the league in rebounding for 7 yrs in a row and he's listed at 6-7, was it legit?

In "the modern era" Charles Barkley led the league in rebounding and it's widely agreed he was barely 6-5. Was it legit?

Bottom line: There are extremely gifted athletes that come along that also have a great desire to excel. I guess in 30 yrs or so as the game continues to evolve and the players continue to get bigger, someone could say MJ would have only avg 15 ppg against the athletes of the day.

Even playing in "the modern era" Chauncey only had 1 season where he avg over 8 assists and routinely has shot in the low 40's from the floor. He's not in KJ's league

He's not anywhere near KJ's league. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I must have missed that.

quote:

Originally posted by trade101:
Sure Oscar's #'s are legit for his day. Why wasn't there a single other player doing what he did in terms of filling up the stat line during his era? Statistically, Oscar should be in the greatest of all time discussion.

Why in Wilt's last season 72-73 did he avg over 18 rbds and shoot almost 75% from the floor when clearly there were more big men in the game? Now, before you say that he only took 7 fga/gm, find me any player whose ever come close to doing it while playing 43 mpg over 82 gms. Kareem was around, so was Lanier, and neither of them did it.

Why in the "modern era" did Dennis Rodman lead the league in rebounding for 7 yrs in a row and he's listed at 6-7, was it legit?

In "the modern era" Charles Barkley led the league in rebounding and it's widely agreed he was barely 6-5. Was it legit?

Bottom line: There are extremely gifted athletes that come along that also have a great desire to excel. I guess in 30 yrs or so as the game continues to evolve and the players continue to get bigger, someone could say MJ would have only avg 15 ppg against the athletes of the day.

Even playing in "the modern era" Chauncey only had 1 season where he avg over 8 assists and routinely has shot in the low 40's from the floor. He's not in KJ's league

So you are admitting that Oscar's stats are inflated?