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NBA 75 coming in Oct. new all time list Login/Join 
Veteran
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LOL at Westbrook being on this list.
 
Posts: 619 | Location: Athens, Greece | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
Picture of matt72582
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Kyrie, Westbrook, and Lillard will never be the best player on a championship team.
 
Posts: 4427 | Location: US | Registered: December 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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Westbrook isn't for me either but I knew he'd be on the list because of his name and numbers (bulk) and the triple double thing.

I agree though I seriously question if hes really deserving. To me Melo is probably just as bad though.

I do kind of think there are guys from every era that put up numbers and have a name but dont necessarily translate to all time great...in terms of being able to lead teams to ships etc...

Then there are those guys that dont quite put up the numbers but are great complimentary fits to Superstars on teams that win ships and dynasties etc...

with all time great lists though and to celebrate the game and different eras it would be hard to leave some guys off the list..its a mosaic of names that have defined the game. I'm not a big AI guy but he was a cultural icon and did some incredible things on the court...Westbrook isn't quite at that level but I understand why hes on the list.


I can nit pick at this list as a whole and have my personal gripes but I can also say I kind of understand it. Surprised Pau Gasol didn't make it also maybe thought some of the guys who have finished their careers just bit more prior to this modern/modern era and didn't play so much in this inflated stats era got the raw end of the deal. I always thought a player who has finished his career should get a little nod over someone in the middle of theirs...with other considerations be relatively equal.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'm just here to have fun and put out constructive criticism. No hating allowed.
Veteran
Picture of Mr.Howard
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quote:
Originally posted by matt72582:
Kyrie, Westbrook, and Lillard will never be the best player on a championship team.


Jeez Matt, nobody said they had to be Lol. It's a bunch of players on that list from the 90s who don't have championships because of that one ball head dude, I forgot his name Lol
 
Posts: 738 | Location: Michigan | Registered: October 24, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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I think Klay is the biggest snub. Top 3 shooter of all time. Excellent defensive player. Won 3 championships. What else does he need to do?

And it's hard to imagine 75 greater players than Kyrie. He's more talented than AI and more accomplished having won a championship. Imagine AI's handles with an elite shooting stroke and finishing ability. That's Kyrie. He's a lot better than Westbrook too.
 
Posts: 2950 | Location: The Palace | Registered: October 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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I agree that Klay and Kyrie deserve to be on the list more than some of those other names...Dame for sure imo.

Why it doesn't bother me that much though is imo as well someone in the middle of their career shouldn't be promised a spot unless they are a Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, MJ, i'll even add KD (with a ring) type. Klay doesn't qualify here to me Kyrie is probably the bigger snub but he doesn't qualify either...Kyrie was huge in the most epic finals comback of the era, has the numbers in a nice combo of bulk and efficiency...has been clearly the second best player on a championship team...Klays nice dont get me wrong but he hasn't been as nice as Kyrie at his peak...though hes been more steady winning ships playing with Steph and KD isn't as impressive. He hasn't had the shoulder the role Kyrie has and his overall game isn't as diverse. Both their stories are missing important chapters though so i dont mind them not being their yet.

My one big gripe with the list is that they have 76 players on it. Sorry they need a tie breaker or something and they need to put Dame off it. If not Dame probably Melo.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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KI is a great side kick to a championship team. He's not a leader and that is well documented. He has amazing skill with his shooting and elite ball handling. He's possibly the best ball handler ever in history. But it has never translated to playoff births, until Lebron n Love joined him. His stint in Boston sorta tarnished his image. Now he is on a team that underachieved last season. If he's a player dependant on All star studded lineups in order to thrive, Im sure they take that into consideration. And Westbrook being rated as high as he is, has more to do with putting up 4 triple double seasons, than winning.

Take the list how you want, but I am not really that impressed with it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Stuck Da Luckster,


The power in my writing, you will never take away..
 
Posts: 5660 | Location: Detroit Michigan | Registered: January 27, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Veteran
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It is expected that there is some recency bias in such lists. Agent pressure, connections, short memory etc.

And yeah, some names on there are questionable, but the Westbrook thing is a complete joke. It tarnishes the legitimacy of the list, and it is disrespectful to the rest of the guys who made it on the list. He shouldn't even be sniffing the list from afar.

"Statpadding, guys! It doesn't matter if you fail time after time again and never succeed. It doesn't matter if you fail as #1, fail as #2 in the Rockets, and are soon about to fail as #3 in the Lakers. Statpadding! That's where it's at!"
 
Posts: 619 | Location: Athens, Greece | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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With Wesbrook its like a toss up to me. He did make it to the finals wih KD and Harden and played a pivitol role making it to the finals, most notably his pesky defense. But when you think of KI, he doesn't defend at all.
But he made the most important shot in finals history. The variables in this can drive someone nuts!

There needs to be an alternate list. There are just too manny great players to pick from. You have guys that won multiple rings that also get snubbed.


The power in my writing, you will never take away..
 
Posts: 5660 | Location: Detroit Michigan | Registered: January 27, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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quote:
Originally posted by Panatha:
It is expected that there is some recency bias in such lists. Agent pressure, connections, short memory etc.

And yeah, some names on there are questionable, but the Westbrook thing is a complete joke. It tarnishes the legitimacy of the list, and it is disrespectful to the rest of the guys who made it on the list. He shouldn't even be sniffing the list from afar.

"Statpadding, guys! It doesn't matter if you fail time after time again and never succeed. It doesn't matter if you fail as #1, fail as #2 in the Rockets, and are soon about to fail as #3 in the Lakers. Statpadding! That's where it's at!"


If I made a list Westbrook probably wouldn't be on it myself if that means anything here? My question to you what has Melo or Dame done to date to separate themselves from Westbrook in an all time debate?

ps..recency bias probably explains Thompson and Kyrie not on the list. Klay hasn't played in 2 yrs and Kyrie is always in the news for the wrong reasons.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Star
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Who doing the voting? It's all opinionated so I take it with a grain of voters. Voters can hold grudges




I've been in pressure situations before. All my life it's been about pressure and having to get it done. Just because you say it publicly, it does not make me afraid of it or make me shy away from it. - Isaiah Lord Thomas, Detroit Pistons

quote:
I was Born twice, first through my moms then through the womb of Islam

 
Posts: 1561 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: October 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Veteran
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quote:
With Wesbrook its like a toss up to me. He did make it to the finals wih KD and Harden and played a pivitol role making it to the finals, most notably his pesky defense.


If you want to go that route, then I am all for including Jrue on the list as well. Anyway, jokes aside, we are talking Top75 all time. What Westbrook did early (and never again) is nowhere near enough. I doubt he is even Top75 of the last decade (although I haven't counted seriously).

quote:
My question to you what has Melo or Dame done to date to separate themselves from Westbrook in an all time debate?


Normally I would be saying similar things
for Melo, but Melo carried the US Team to success, so he's got that going for him.

I wouldn't have put Dame on there either. He could be Top 150, I don't know. Westbrook is not Top 150.
 
Posts: 619 | Location: Athens, Greece | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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I just realized Bernard King is not on the list. Forget this whole list
 
Posts: 2950 | Location: The Palace | Registered: October 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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Benard King is a name I thought of too...but more in the same vein as an Adrian Dantley....maybe to lesser degree Mark Aguirre.

More of a one way player, a prolific scorer who put up big numbers on some notoriously bad teams.

Benard King had kind of a tragic element to him with the injuries and not really finding the right team and fit etc...but Dantleys overall resume is still clearly superior if you look it up. Benard King never got out of the second round. Dantley was the leading scorer on a Pistons team that was robbed of a ring...even though we know how that story played out and what gives a little avenue to argue for an Aguirre here.

@clutch maybe you were being facetious when you said throw away the list? bit melo dramtic maybe?...Melo is another guy I put in a similar category.

If Isiah Thomas or Kevin Garnett aren't on the list you throw it away...Im not going to do it for Benard King, Dantley or Melo though for that matter.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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@panatha didn't Kenneth Farried carry a US team in international play at some point? we are talking about an all time NBA list here...sorry its just not relevant to the convo.

I agree that westbrook doesn't belong breathing the same air as some of the better names on this all time list but I simply dont see Melo or Dame being able to separate from Westbrook in an objective look at their resumes.

The only thing I can think of is Melo and DAme were the best players on teams that were able to sneak into a WCF 1 x in their careers...

Young Westbrook was on teams that enjoyed much more sustained success, 60 win teams made multiple runs to wcf played in an NBA finals...granted he got to play with KD and Harden...all very young though and they did have early success together considering how young...with Westbrook and Durant being the primary pieces.

Lots of holes to chip at under scrutiny with Westbrook too for sure...bottom line when leading a team Westbrook adn Melo both have spent the majority of their careers putting up numbers and losing in the 1st round.

Westbrook, DAme and Melo all have put their faces and names in kind of the forefront conversations around the league highly recognizable lots of all star appearances etc definitly not in being winners. It is what it is...Im not a fan myself but I still say your opinion is a bit strong of Westbrook here.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post

Mellow Funky
Superstar
Picture of Joe Jam
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Recency bias works two ways. You can favor more recent players because you’re more familiar with them and their games. You can also be more critical of them because you see their flaws more than players of yesteryear.

It’s not that criticisms of Westbrook, Melo, and Dame don’t have merit. It’s just that sometimes we think of legendary players of the past and put them on a pedestal without the same type of harsh, fine-tooth comb criticism. Dominique Wilkins was a similar statpadder to Russ, though more about scoring statpadding. And he never led a team past the second round of the playoffs. Sure, his career in the Eastern Conference overlapped with the Celtics, Sixers, Pistons, and Bulls. But he still failed over and over in the post season. Reggie Miller was legendary in two regards, his shooting and his playoff performances against the Knicks. In reality, he was not above average in any other aspect of the game other than shooting. Not defense, not rebounding, not playmaking. He’s probably even less well-rounded than Melo. Our very own Dave Bing is probably less worthy than Dame. Only made the playoffs five times in a dozen seasons, never made it out of the second round.

We can nitpick holes in the games of guys like Russ and Melo and Dame. And those holes might very well be legitimate. But do not forget all the other top 75 guys from the past who have similar holes and flaws. Heck, even though endearing to us, there are legitimate arguments against a guy like Dennis. Like he was never the best player on any team he played for, not even the second best player. Coincidentally, I’d also question Scottie as a top 75 player as well.

Just a counter perspective. If you question Dame and Melo and Russ, you gotta questions guys like Nique and Reggie and Bing.
 
Posts: 16910 | Location: Boogie Boulevard | Registered: July 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
Picture of matt72582
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quote:
Originally posted by Clutch 2k:
I think Klay is the biggest snub. Top 3 shooter of all time. Excellent defensive player. Won 3 championships. What else does he need to do?



I think he's better than Curry, who only plays on one end. And, he's the first option. He gets to relax on defense, being put on guys who never shoot, while Klay has to work his .... off to get a shot, running through screens, very efficient, can score 70 in 3 quarters with 8 dribbles, and is a GREAT defender. Good guy.

Definitely a lot of recency bias, but they do this on purpose because they know Bob Petit isn't "good marketing".

I like former players voting, but rachel .05?
 
Posts: 4427 | Location: US | Registered: December 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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The biggest snub, without question, is the omission of Bob Lanier. Not only was he the only center who could rival Kareem (and bested him on more than one occasion) but he led the Pistons and Bucks teams that he played for in both scoring and rebounding. Man he had a sweet outside shot and beautiful hook shot. sadly his knees gave out on him. Big Bob was undoubtedly one of the best centers to ever play the game in any era.
 
Posts: 3105 | Registered: January 28, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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I agree with idea that recency bias and nestalgia for the past are kind of like 2 edges of the same blade so to speak. They can be.

Thats why I think when comprising a list like this its good that there are relatively equal representation of players from various eras and time frames. In appreciating the names and faces and greatness of players over its history.

Furthermore, I also think its best served to really compare and debate players that have played during relatively similar eras and have at least some significant career overlap with eachother for the purposes of this list. When we start debating players from disparate eras I think a double edged sword in itself emerges thats makes it exceeding difficult.

@Jam I see your point with respect to Miller and Nique. Reggie maybe not be the best all around players on the list...Dominique I could probably do without being on the list. Reggie has been a part of some of the most clutch iconic playoff performances of his time though...I also remember he almost took out the Bulls on their last dance run. He certainly conjures a strong image in the memory fabric of his time period playing for successful teams that made deep runs even if they came up short. Maybe for Nique its a nickname like the human highlight reel and what he did in dunk contests? as well as dueling out with Bird in the playoffs...that helps put him on the list and makes him memorable. I can probably go either way here with these names.

with me however I draw a different line with Pippen and Rodman. Ive previously stated when remembering greatness in the NBA there are guys that lead a team to finals ships these are the greatest of all time...there are great players that lead teams but come up short...then there are great players who compliment the Superstars or all time greats and push their teams over the top to being all time great teams and dynasties...these are the compliment guys that have their own distinctive nich that even other all time great players might not be able to do. Pippen complimented Jordan so well it can't be denied he was integral to maybe the greatest team of all time.

Rodman to me kind of falls in a similar vein albeit from a unique angle. He didn't have to be the "best" or even "second best" player on his team to achieve this but was such an integral part of 2 dynasty teams...not like a Robert Horry role player. Horry hit big shots and was great for what he did. Rodman could actually dominate with defense and rebounding while contributing to team greatness on the court...to the point where we question traditional measures of defining a "great" player...he challenged these definitions magnificently.

To me Pippen and Rodman excelled to such a degree in their complimentary roles we can't deny their greatness and belonging on the list.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Superstar
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@catori I never saw bob lanier play so I can't really speak to him and how he impacted the game during his era...I just know he put up numbers and didn't play on good teams.

@matt with regard to Klay Thompson I wouldn't have a problem with him being on the list. i look at klay as more of a Ray Allen type player in terms of his impact...my biggest problem with him and steph are KD...in terms of the Warriors team and being a dynasty...really feels like they cheated...The Warriors won 1 ship without KD and the Cavs were down Kyrie adn Kevin love when they won. Would the Warriors be a dynasty if KD didn't join them? Maybe? A lot of his career is still in the balance too.
 
Posts: 3150 | Location: United States | Registered: August 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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