if it had never happened, this could very well be our rotation right now:

C - Brown/Wallace
F - Villanueva/Maxiell
F - Prince
G - Hamilton/Stuckey
G - Billups/Bynum


villanueva pretty much signed for the same amount as the MLE, so we could've gotten him with that. ben wallace would've probably still been available. and who knows, maybe we could've even retained sheed and/or dice. edit: actually, dice would still be under contract

with billups here, curry would probably still have a job though. and we most likely wouldnt have daye or gordon.


which situation do u think joe would prefer if he could do it all over again?

Joe was done with the old crew, so I vote NO.

quote:

villanueva pretty much signed for the same amount as the MLE, so we could've gotten him with that.

Actually, that's not true. That's what Cleveland offered him and if I am not mistaken, CV signed for 5 years and 35 million dollars. That's 7 million a year compared to the 5.6 per year that Cleveland offered him. A difference of 1.4 million per year, or 7 million dollars.

If Joe Dumars didn't trade Billups, I highly doubt you guys would have Villanueva right now.

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:

quote:

villanueva pretty much signed for the same amount as the MLE, so we could've gotten him with that.

Actually, that's not true. That's what Cleveland offered him and if I am not mistaken, CV signed for 5 years and 35 million dollars. That's 7 million a year compared to the 5.6 per year that Cleveland offered him. A difference of 1.4 million per year, or 7 million dollars.

If Joe Dumars didn't trade Billups, I highly doubt you guys would have Villanueva right now.

ron artest and trevor ariza both signed for the full MLE which was $33.95 million over 5 years.


i'm not sure what cleveland was doing...

Joe wanted to move the ball up the court quickly and get easy transition baskets. Billups never did that. And, he didn't have Stuckey's ability to finish at the basket.

Joe probably also thought Stuckey's range would improve with time, as it does for most perimeter players.

What Stuckey hasn't shown is an ability to run the half court offense. As a rookie, he showed potential, but seems to has gotten worse with time.

No. I think Joe knew it was time to rebuild. Everone was getting old, especially Rasheed, and this team could no longer compete for a title.

quote:

Originally posted by DAYE POWER:

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:

quote:

villanueva pretty much signed for the same amount as the MLE, so we could've gotten him with that.

Actually, that's not true. That's what Cleveland offered him and if I am not mistaken, CV signed for 5 years and 35 million dollars. That's 7 million a year compared to the 5.6 per year that Cleveland offered him. A difference of 1.4 million per year, or 7 million dollars.

If Joe Dumars didn't trade Billups, I highly doubt you guys would have Villanueva right now.

ron artest and trevor ariza both signed for the full MLE which was $33.95 million over 5 years.


i'm not sure what cleveland was doing...

The mid-level exception is $5.854 million for the 2009-10 season.

Villanova signed a five-year, $35 million contract.

Charlie V. got 7 million per year, which is more than the MLE. This has nothing to do with Cleveland messing it up. Detroit used their cap space.

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:

quote:

Originally posted by DAYE POWER:

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:

quote:

villanueva pretty much signed for the same amount as the MLE, so we could've gotten him with that.

Actually, that's not true. That's what Cleveland offered him and if I am not mistaken, CV signed for 5 years and 35 million dollars. That's 7 million a year compared to the 5.6 per year that Cleveland offered him. A difference of 1.4 million per year, or 7 million dollars.

If Joe Dumars didn't trade Billups, I highly doubt you guys would have Villanueva right now.

ron artest and trevor ariza both signed for the full MLE which was $33.95 million over 5 years.


i'm not sure what cleveland was doing...

The mid-level exception is $5.854 million for the 2009-10 season.

Villanova signed a five-year, $35 million contract.

Charlie V. got 7 million per year, which is more than the MLE. This has nothing to do with Cleveland messing it up. Detroit used their cap space.

you do know that the MLE doesn't require players to make a fixed amount every year, right?


since you like articles so much, read these:

Lakers sign Artest to a 5-year, $33 million contract

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4303862


i'd be interested in knowing how these over-the-cap teams managed to come up with the money for the players. you know, since it isn't the MLE...

The Lakers had to start at the MLE. Detroit started Villanueva at $6,500,000.

.............Ron Artest C Villanueva
2009/10 $5,854,000 $6,500,000
2010/11 $6,322,320 $7,020,000
2011/12 $6,790,640 $7,540,000
2012/13 $7,258,960 $8,050,000
2013/14 $7,727,280 $8,580,000

Cleveland had interest in CV, but didn't get him. Do you think it is any coincidence that it had something to do with Detroit's cap space and Cleveland's lack of it?

Artest doesn't have a fully guaranteed 34 million dollar contract.

Artest gets 3/$18 mil, but can choose to extend for two more years to bring the full value to just under $34 million.

In case you are wondering, 18 divided by 3 is, you guessed it, the MLE (about 5.8 million a year).

Detroit could present contract offers to both, who know each other well after being teammates at the University of Connecticut, and maybe take two of the top players off the market on the first day of free agency. The Pistons likely have enough to outbid other teams with only the Bulls being able to offer Gordon more. The Cavs, who have interest in Villanueva, can only offer up to $5.6 million with the mid-level exception.

I'm not sure what other proof I need to provide to you to convince you that, no, Charlie Villanueva would not be a Pistons had they not had the cap space.

If all it took was the MLE to sign him, he'd be in Cleveland right now.

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:
Cleveland had interest in CV, but didn't get him. Do you think it is any coincidence that it had something to do with Detroit's cap space and Cleveland's lack of it?

Artest doesn't have a fully guaranteed 34 million dollar contract.

Artest gets 3/$18 mil, but can choose to extend for two more years to bring the full value to just under $34 million.

In case you are wondering, 18 divided by 3 is, you guessed it, the MLE (about 5.8 million a year).

Detroit could present contract offers to both, who know each other well after being teammates at the University of Connecticut, and maybe take two of the top players off the market on the first day of free agency. The Pistons likely have enough to outbid other teams with only the Bulls being able to offer Gordon more. The Cavs, who have interest in Villanueva, can only offer up to $5.6 million with the mid-level exception.

I'm not sure what other proof I need to provide to you to convince you that, no, Charlie Villanueva would not be a Pistons had they not had the cap space.

If all it took was the MLE to sign him, he'd be in Cleveland right now.

is it really that difficult for you to understand the concept of $33-34 million/5yrs versus $35 million/5yrs?


regardless of how many articles and starting-salaries you want to post, these are the numbers. you just posted yourself that ron artest will get approximately $34 million dollars should he choose to.


are you just being a retard to cope with the fact that you guys lost out on villanueva, or do you really see a point to arguing with me? or are you under the impression that villanueva is simply a fiend for having his contract structured in a different manner, or for the extra $1 million and change?


and how do you figure cleveland would've got him? lol as if it's some sort of coveted place by nba players. larry hughes was the cavs' most talented signing in god knows how many years...after you guys got shot down by michael redd.

Jesus Christ. Will someone who is reasonable post in this thread and remind me of why I even bother? There used to be some pretty nice people on here who could talk basketball without getting all hateful merely because I am a Cavs fan.

Let me say this one more time:

THE CAVS LOST OUT ON VILLANUEVA BECAUSE DETROIT OFFERED MORE PER YEAR THAN CLEVELAND.

Why is that so hard for you to understand? You're telling me that Villanueva decided to take equal money than to contend for a championship for at least this year?

Can I get at least one person to agree with me that CV got a better contract in Detroit than Cleveland could have offered him? The Pistons tanked last season for precious cap space and they used it on Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.

Again, no cap space, no Charlie. The MLE is between 5.6 and 5.8 million a year. Charlie V. makes 6.5 this season and 7 next season. That's a bigger contract than the MLE.

Your thread sucks because it is contractually impossible due to the CBA that the NBA has in place.

The bottom line is that Villanueva got 7 million more to play in Detroit than he would have gotten in Cleveland. Only a fool would walk away from that.

It's not contractually impossible for Detroit to still have gotten Villanueva in this situation. He just would've had to choose Detroit's MLE offer over Cleveland's MLE offer. And I don't think that's very farfetched.

quote:

It's not contractually impossible for Detroit to still have gotten Villanueva in this situation. He just would've had to choose Detroit's MLE offer over Cleveland's MLE offer. And I don't think that's very farfetched.

Well, that's a whole different story. Who knows what he would have done in that situation. However, the OP is arguing that CV's contract is essentially the MLE when in reality it's 7 million more than that.

dude, seriously - are you retarded?


the mle STARTS at $5.8 million. since you opted to do some math in your last post, let's try some more:


multiply 5.8 times five. now tell me if that comes out to 33-34


since you're kinda slow, i'll give you the answer: NO. obviously, there are some raises somewhere.

my point is that the amounts are basically the same over the course of five years. unless you seem to think that villanueva, for whatever reason, prefers a more steady amount of money over huge raises, then you needed to shut up a few posts ago.


and if you really want a list of why someone may choose the pistons over the cavs:

- the pistons play in a larger market
- the pistons have a stronger fan base
- the pistons aren't being held hostage by lebron
- the pistons have a history of winning that doesn't include nike make-believe
- villanueva would be the pistons' best big man
- villanueva would be filling a role in detroit vacated by a player similar to him
- the pistons' best player could make free throws if he needed to help seal up a tightly contested series and maybe villanueva could win something in real life instead of Cavsland
- and our throwbacks dont look like vomit

You forgot one major fact about the Pistons:

-The Pistons very well could play .500 ball this year and get swept out of the first round again.
-I'll refrain from bringing up the guy in your sig.

I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time with this. The reason CV is in Detroit right now is because of their cap space. That is a widely accepted opinion among NBA fans.

It's not like he didn't toy with the idea of signing in Cleveland.

quote:

well, twitterland like I said there will be more trades to come, very interesting, Shaq to Cleveland, nice, all Cleveland need is a PF now

That's a CV Twitter quote.

quote:

Cleveland fans are showing me mad love on twitter, appreciate the love

Another CV quote.

When Boozer didn't opt out of his contract, that opened the flood gates and the end result was BG and CV signing in Detroit.

Allow me to rephrase that: The end result was Joe Dumars spending his cap space on BG and CV. Neither player signed for the MLE.

Your reasons for why CV chose the Pistons over the Cavs is missing one key fact and you have to know that it's true. Your argument is so weak and absurd, I am convinced that you are arguing with me merely because of which team I root for.

well it looks like you finally accepted the fact that your math is ****-poor. good job. now onto the next issue:


is cap space money more green than MLE money? what difference does it make if the contract amount is virtually the same?


is it really that unfathomable to you that somebody just doesn't want to play for cleveland? hell, lebron is from the area and he possibly doesn't even want to play there.


trevor ariza also entertained the possibility of playing for the cavs and obviously doesn't right now. and i remember him voicing concerns about lebron's future. considering the franchise was a complete joke before it won the 03 lottery and will probably be one if lebron leaves, i wouldn't want to be stuck there either


and by the way - this thread had jack **** to do with the cavs before you came in here acting butt-hurt because you guys didnt get villanueva

Trevor Ariza and Ron Artest signed for the MLE. Ariza wanted a ton of touches next year in Houston. He also made 9 million more throughout his contract due to the income tax structure in Texas.

Ron Artest wanted to sign with the champs and live in LA.

Those two guys chose to not play in Cleveland despite the MLE being the only offer.

Charlie V. got a bigger contract in Detroit. I guarantee he wouldn't be here had that not been the case.

well considering you can't even do basic math, we'll just take your "guarantees" with a grain of salt.



back to the original topic...

quote:

Originally posted by No Offense:
Only a fool would walk away from that.

Or an old desperate vet looking for a ring.

NO NO NO NO NO NO.

This is exactly what Joe D wanted to do!! He wanted to rebuild on the fly and pick up quality players asap.

JOE WASNT TRYING TO WIN A 'SHIP, HE WANTED TO GET YOUNG PLAYERS IN FREE AGENCY to build the team around for the next decade. he did! This is what he wanted to do, and he did it.